I quit going to a pentecostal church a few weeks back. As you probably already know I was shunned for smoking cigs. I'm glad these "quacks"
shunned me - they did me a favor by showing their true colors. However, a cousin of mine who is Baptist is urging me to go to a group that he attended in
Arizona called "Celebrate Recovery". It is supposed to be a Christ centered 12-step program which was started out of Saddleback Church (which I know
nothing about) and has spread all over the U.S. The dilemma I am in is that the closest Celebrate Recovery meeting to me is held at an Assembly of God Church
on Monday nights. They are supposed to have 1 hour of group praise and worship and then go into group meetings for 1 hour. I am suspicious of going to any
meeting at an Asssembly of God church although I have never attended one - only an Independent Pentecostal Church and that, believe me was enough. I am afraid
that the Assembly will have "plants" in the meeting to try to recruit for their church. When I mentioned this to my cousin - he said "not in a
Celebrate Recovery meeting". Has anyone heard of this group - Celebrate Recovery? Would it be considered "pentecostal" if they have a band and
a 1 hr. praise and worship service? What do you think about it being held at an Assembly of God Church? Also, I have reservations about 12-step meetings in
general. I tried going to the typical 12-step groups about 20 yrs. ago and the people in their drove me "nuts' with their stupid "slogans"
and telling people "not to think". Your guidance, opinions and any knowledge of this "group" is greatly appreciated.
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Need Your Guidance/Opinions On a Dilemma
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 not1perfect |
Need Your Guidance/Opinions On a Dilemma |
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Posts: 30 (06/13/09 18:05:16) |
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tandc90 |
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Posts: 1157 (06/13/09 18:16:38) exPc Fan |
The one-hour praise and worship is a huge red flag for me. ANY praise and worship would be, not just the hour-long period. I would suspect Saddleback
doesn't know they're doing this (isn't Saddleback Baptist?).
Personally I'd run screaming in the other direction. If they're doing P&W before the meething then they're also doing a lot of pente crap during the meeting, I guarantee it. |
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 walkawayarchie |
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Posts: 186 (06/13/09 18:25:16) |
I think it's all a crock of **** and an attempt to drag you back. As far as I understand the 12 step programs- one of the central themes is NOT following
of one tradition (i.e. Christianity)- but accepting people where they are and how they believe. Like you, I've NEVER heard of a 12 step program with a
prayer and praise service. The worst thing is that it's held in a Assemblies church. THAT IS ALWAYS BAD BAD NEWS. It is EXTREMELY unlikely
they would approve of anything in their church unless it was explicitly dominionist. (Prayer and Praise services also seem to be a Pentecostal/Dominionist
"thing".)
The name "Saddleback Church" is also setting off all sorts of warning bells in my mind. I'm pretty sure that is BIG TIME BAD NEWS, and anything from them is going to be subversive dominionist. I don't remember where I heard that name from, but like I said- "Alarm bells" went off and I'm pretty sure I've read something about them- that they are very bad news. So IMO, not a good idea, unless someone here who is reputable has other information that contradicts what I think I've read (I average a few books a week, especially for my research, so I can't remember everything). I'd suggest doing a search on Talk 2 Action and Dark Christianity- even maybe post a message on DC about Saddleback and "Celebrate Recovery" (Put the two together in a single post). Like I said, I think I've read some sort of report about them- and that they were very bad news. |
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not1perfect |
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Posts: 31 (06/13/09 18:27:54) |
I don't know if Saddleback is Baptist - I can't find what they are from their website. My cousin told me that they have a 1 hr. praise and worship
service with a band at the one he attends in Arizona also. Are praise and worship services and indictation of pentecostalism in most or all instances?
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walkawayarchie |
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Posts: 187 (06/13/09 18:32:37) |
That is my opinion. Either directly Pentecostal, or being part of a steeplejacked church which is essentially the same thing as being Pentecostal.
The fact that it is being held in an AoG church is a clear sign of trouble, as "Prayer and Praise" services have such strong ties to Pentecostalism. Put the two together- it's going to be Pentecostal, or at least dominionist. |
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tandc90 |
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Posts: 1158 (06/13/09 18:33:57) exPc Fan |
not1perfect wrote:Are praise and worship services and indictation of pentecostalism in most or all instances? I've NEVER heard of a praise & worship service in a non-pente church. My opinion is the answer to your question is yes. I always assume a church is pente if they mention praise & worship. In fact, I think it's as important an indicator as tongues are. |
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tandc90 |
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Posts: 1159 (06/13/09 18:38:37) exPc Fan |
You could always get their late enough to avoid the praise and worship and see for yourself what they're all about.
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Lutherius |
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Posts: 3984 (06/13/09 18:39:37) Happy Reprobate |
The term "praise and worship" is explicitly Pentecostal or Charismatic.
So, yes, red flags are flying. Traditional churches will not use the term "praise and worship" unless they are going charismatic.
Lutherius
"I cannot and I will not recant. Here I stand; I can do no other." Martin Luther Ex-Pentecostal Forums Lutherius' Blog (Archived Essays) Pentecostal Watchdog Society (Yahoo Allied Group) derkrash@earthlink.net (My Personal Email) |
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tandc90 |
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Posts: 1160 (06/13/09 18:45:29) exPc Fan |
I went to the website, and here's how the AoG is able to infect the Celebrate Recovery program with their beliefs. This is in the About section at the
bottom of the page where the question is below. I don't know how the "blame the victim" and "shut up and trust god" mentality of
charismania works with what the program appears to be. I'd sure like to be a fly on the wall at one of those meetings.
CAN I USE THE CELEBRATE RECOVERY NAME? Celebrate Recovery® desires to be a network of like-minded, Bible based Christ-centered recovery ministries. This growing network crosses denominational and cultural boundaries to help hurting people in our church and community.
Last Edited By: tandc90
06/13/09 18:49:07.
Edited 2 times.
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walkawayarchie |
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Posts: 190 (06/13/09 19:00:19) |
tandc90- like other programs, I can also see where this could be used to infect non-Pentecostal/non-Dominionist churches.
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not1perfect |
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Posts: 32 (06/13/09 19:22:37) |
I visted my cousin in Arizona a couple of months ago. He goes to a Baptist church and I attended the services at his church. They had a "praise and worship" service with a band with people raising their hands and clapping. However, there was no "speaking in tongues", etc. They also hold "Celebrate Recovery" meetings on Fri. nights in his church with a band and have praise and worship he told me. When I told him that I quit going to the Independent Pentecostal Church I was going to, he urged me to try Celebrate Recovery. Why would a Baptist Church have a praise and worship service if they weren't pentecostal? Why would Celebrate Recovery have a praise and worship service with a band? I thought Saddleback the church that founded Celebrate Recovery was Baptist or something similiar. Is Celebrate Recovery which is supposed to be a Christ centered recovery program for "people with hurts, habits and hangups" as they advertise, pentecostal?
Last Edited By: not1perfect
06/14/09 06:12:06.
Edited 2 times.
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walkawayarchie |
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Posts: 191 (06/13/09 19:43:03) |
Hurts, habits, and hangups... lumped together????
That is VERY VERY disturbing to me. It implies the same old "they've got a problem so what are they doing wrong? BS"! You don't deal with hurts the same way as you deal with habits- and you don't deal with "hangups" that way either. The ersatz programs that the Assemblies are known for doing take the "one size fits all" approach- and look at the trouble it got them in Australia. The more I hear- the more I think this is not good. BTW- Dominionist churches (churches that think they need to and have God's command to take over the US/World) aren't always Pentecostal, but they can be worse than some Pentecostal churches for abuse! I've talked with a few ex-Southern Baptists, and while they don't have the Pentecostal stuff, the churches they were in were just as abusive, manipulative, and controlling. |
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not1perfect |
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Posts: 33 (06/13/09 19:54:47) |
Archie - What is the ersatz programs?
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walkawayarchie |
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Posts: 192 (06/13/09 21:04:02) |
I'll get back to you with some examples and links. One program that got the Assemblies in DEEP water in Australia was a program for young women with
"problems"... it was so horrible in the way they were treated that people woke up a bit in that country to the danger they were in- and after other
investigations the Assemblies in Australia changed their name, because "Assemblies of God" was associated with abuse and cult behavior.
Your Baptist cousin is Pentecostal- the Assemblies (and their cousins/offshoots) targeted the Baptist churches for steeplejacking and have converted many of them- they're Pentecostals in Baptist clothing. Now it is obvious- he's trying to drag you back into Pentecostalism. They ALWAYS refer to other non-Pentecostal/Fundamentalist/Dominionist churches as "Dead Churches"- unless they've been steeplejacked. Every tidbit of information just confirms- VERY BAD NEWS, AVOID LIKE PLAGUE. (It sounds like you're surrounded by Pentecostals- I know the feeling!) In fact, I would refuse to go to any "meeting" or whatever involving someone's personal house or someplace you don't know- they ARE known for forcing "exorcisms" on people who try to escape their clutches. I'd suggest- If you have some non-Christian (or non-Pentecostal) friends, have them kind of keep tabs on you for safety's sake. |
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Lainie |
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Posts: 76 (06/13/09 22:01:23) |
not1, I'm pretty sure that Saddleback is non-denominational, independent. I just checked their website and there's no mention of a denomination- surely
there would be if they were Baptist.
Rick Warren (Saddleback's pastor) appears to be a nice, mellow, touchy-feely guy, but he's basically a dominionist in disguise. And no, real recovery programs do not feature a 'praise and worship' service. If they have P&W, they aren't going to point you toward recovery- they're looking to swap one addiction for another. And that won't fix teh basic problem. |
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lozza |
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Posts: 3692 (06/14/09 01:31:13) Musical Mantric |
hi not1perfect, I haven't yet read the replies to your original question, but I wanted to comment because I feel very strongly on this. Don't go
to Celebrate Recovery. I've never heard of it, but the title seems to imply one of two things:
Last Edited By: lozza
06/14/09 01:39:17.
Edited 2 times.
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Lutherius |
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Posts: 3985 (06/14/09 02:45:58) Happy Reprobate |
not1perfect wrote:The term "dead church" is a giveaway. Essentially, this is an epithet for orderly, liturgical churches. What would they think is the opposite of a "dead church"? Wild services full of excitement, "praise and worship" and a preacher yelling over a microphone. Refer to my post on carnal versus spiritual, but a person who does not see the spirituality in a liturgical church is indeed carnal in the true sense of the term. So these carnal people with no sense of awe, spirituality, and meaning need entertainment elements to keep them interested in church. Making a church more lively is a dead giveaway that the people have lost their way and are looking for excitement as a substitute for finding meaning. Mindless entertainment is generally the same problem. When life is empty of meaning, people look for a substitute, because "man cannot live by bread alone," meaning that people cannot live life just eating, drinking, copulating, and sleeping. We are pulled toward something beyond ourselves. If we do not find it in meaning, we will find it in mindless entertainment or violence or mindless sex, or drugs - anything to dull the pain and finding a substitute for living a life without meaning (or spirituality).
Lutherius
"I cannot and I will not recant. Here I stand; I can do no other." Martin Luther Ex-Pentecostal Forums Lutherius' Blog (Archived Essays) Pentecostal Watchdog Society (Yahoo Allied Group) derkrash@earthlink.net (My Personal Email) |
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Taco Fred |
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Posts: 1143 (06/14/09 05:19:37) exPc Fan |
They would have had me leaving with the term "praise and worship". Stay away from any type of AOG sponsored recovery.
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walkawayarchie |
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Posts: 193 (06/14/09 06:23:07) |
So Saddleback is Warren's church... I THOUGHT I heard/read the name.
It's pure dominionist- VERY bad news. Think Pentecostal on steroids. Rick Warren carefully cultivates the "laid back" appearance, but he is well known and people have pierced the disguise placed over him and his "independent church". Oh.. and the "Independent Churches" are also a dead giveaway. They claim to be independent- but most are Assemblies of God "undercover" and in reality are pulling a bait-and-switch. Don't go to the meetings, unless you want to go back with the Pentecostals. |
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not1perfect |
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Posts: 34 (06/14/09 06:23:28) |
My Baptist cousin who wants me to attend "Celebrate Recovery" meetings also went to "Teen Challenge for Adults" for a couple of years.
Does anyone know what this is? Is it pentecostal?
Last Edited By: not1perfect
06/14/09 06:30:05.
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walkawayarchie |
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Posts: 195 (06/14/09 06:54:01) |
Worse and worse. Teen Challenge is one of those ersatz things I've read about, and is straight out of the Assemblies of God.
http://teenchallengecult....eror-teen-challenge.html http://www.talk2action.or...ory/2009/2/10/105818/073 Go down to dogemperor's post- she mentions Teen Challenge. Your cousin is dominionist Pentecostal- and unless he/she has walked, the type of Pentecostalism taught in these things encourages deception in proselytizing, "bait and switch" involvement in church activities- you name it. There is now NO question whatsoever- your cousin is trying to trick/coerce you back into Pentecostalism- and into the worst type (Dominionist). |
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