Perseverance of the Saints?

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kindoman	Perseverance of the Saints?	Lead	[-]
Posts: 155 (08/21/07 04:53:03) exPc Fan Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Tags : None As most will know I am an ex-ncmi-pentecostal. I have a friend that is an ex-sda (Seven Day Adventist). When she left the SDA movement I tried to encourage her to join a church that was orthodox, but much to my horror she went and joined a church that relates to NCMI. She has already ran into a few problems with the elders of her church, much of it is the same problems that she had with her previous heterodox church. The latest run-in that she has had is that she has been told that she has to keep her "good works" up because she stands a chance of loosing her salvation. I could have told her from the get-go that this would have happened. I gave her a whole bunch of verses that show that the doctrine of "Perseverance of the Saints" is a viable belief for any Christian and that if they still ague then she must get them to give me a call. This got me thinking, does the Pent-church embrace the belief of one loosing their salvation purely because they believe that it is biblical or because it enable them to run their church in a legalistic (heavy shepherding) way. Has anyone got an opinion on this, and what was your experiences in your own church? Also do you think that a church can believe in the loss of salvation and not be legalistic? ======================================= Cults resource's and Information: InTouch Resources Apologetic Community - Joined in fighting heresy:InTouch Forum
choo	Re: Perseverance of the Saints?	#1	[-]
Posts: 464 (08/21/07 05:50:29) exPc Fan Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	The UPC has a heavy works-righteousness emphasis. _________________ But since it falls unto my lot, that I should rise and you should not. I'll gently rise and softly call, "good night and joy be with you all."
Autumncolors	Re: Perseverance of the Saints?	#2	[-]
Posts: 165 (08/21/07 06:51:05) exPc Fan Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	A church that teaches the loss-of-salvation theory is by definition a legalistic one. (I attended Pentecostal/Full Gospel churches on three continents. In each of those churches this heresy was taught and in each of them there was extreme legalism. You know - if you practice sports you will lose your salvation, if you go to the movies you will lose your salvation, if you don't leave your unsaved husband you will go to hell, if you don't get water-baptized you will go to hell, if you put your studies before church attendance you will lose your salvation, if you associate closely with Roman-Catholic relatives you will lose your salvation.) Whatever has to be done to 'keep one's salvation' is without fail works. Last year I heard my mother (an assistant pastor, deacon and 'Bible' study teacher for nearly 27 years) say that she knows God is going to let her into heaven because she worked very hard for Him winning souls! Pentecostal leaders everywhere have a private interpretation of the Scriptures. Some indeed believe the loss-of-salvation is scriptural. Some do not explicitly teach it but it is implied through other theories. You will therefore meet Pentecostals in my neck of the woods that do not know this as a teaching per se but, that definitely live it out in their day-to-day life. This theory absolutely enables Pentecostal leaders to run their churches (I so detest calling them churches) in a legalistic way. If you can convince someone that it is possible to lose their salvation, then you can also convince that there are things they must do to keep it. And, sadly, most Pentecostals do not study the Word of God for themselves. Therefore, they swallow that foolishness hook, line and sinker.
boustro	Re: Perseverance of the Saints?	#3	[-]
Posts: 5119 (08/21/07 07:10:45) There are some who call me .... Timmay! Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Funny how everyone with a whacko belief thinks it's scriptural! I think the answer to your question, Kindoman, is it's both. They think their doctrines are scriptural (really, have convinced themselves of it) and they use them to justify heavy manipulation, feeding their need for power. They are looking for justification, and find it where they want it. They see what they want to see, in the scriptures. Now, I've attended several AG churches where the pastor isn't particularly manipulative or controlling. Still, simply by subscribing to and preaching the AG doctrines (the official ones and many of the unofficial ones) they work the system. Without even realizing it, they are pushing works salvation (or at least the keeping of it), guilt trips, and yes, manipulation. Interestingly, the official AG doctrine is salvation by grace. Fundamental Truth 5 doesn't look bad, on the surface. There is that little sentence at the end, though, that gets the works thing rolling: "The outward evidence to all men is a life of righteousness and true holiness." Even that may be true, but just dropping it there, and allowing the preacher to expand on it, define what righteousness and "true holiness" are, how they see fit, is what gets them in trouble. (That and several other things!) Tim
choo	Re: Perseverance of the Saints?	#4	[-]
Posts: 464 (08/21/07 13:56:25) exPc Fan Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	*Quote:* Interestingly, the official AG doctrine is salvation by grace. I've found that a lot of differences between the AOG's official doctrine and what was actually taught or practiced in the churches. That was actually one reason among a whole list of others that made me leave. _________________ But since it falls unto my lot, that I should rise and you should not. I'll gently rise and softly call, "good night and joy be with you all."
boustro	Re: Perseverance of the Saints?	#5	[-]
Posts: 5119 (08/21/07 17:49:32) There are some who call me .... Timmay! Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Same here! Tim
lozza	Re: Perseverance of the Saints?	#6	[-]
Posts: 4063 (08/22/07 00:38:07) Musical Mantric Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Several people told me I might lose my salvation, but not too many. Generally, the emphasis was on breaking curses and entering the "promised land." Of course, people made all sorts of threats - I'd get thrown down the stairs and end up in a wheelchair. I'd die from an overdose. I'd end up on the streets... Charming, loving people. They also constantly accused me of having demons.
SilentKnight12	Re: Perseverance of the Saints?	#7	[-]
Posts: 766 (08/30/07 17:00:07) exPc Fan Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	John 6:37 KJV: "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." NASB: "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out." Jesus will never throw you out. If you are one of his sheep, then nothing can touch you. You will no doubt be disciplined by God (better by God than by man) if you are being disobedient (and only God truly knows if you are or are not), but Jesus will NEVER abandon you. As for the threats of man, consider the source and the rest of their doctrine. And Jesus is not a liar, otherwise we are all doomed.
stubborn envelope	Re: Perseverance of the Saints?	#8	[-]
Posts: 1551 (08/30/07 17:05:11) exPc Fan Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I'm all for good words, good deeds, not creeds. However, when a Pentecostal talks about "works", they're usually not talking about charity. A "work" is following whatever rules the pastor/monarchy prescribes and abstaining from TV, alcohol, sleeves above the elbow, etc. etc. etc. Their doctrines are definately controlling, legalistic, and cult-like. James
Seawarress	Re: Perseverance of the Saints?	#9	[-]
Posts: 372 (08/30/07 20:28:29) Mommy of a US soldier Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	*Quote:* sleeves above the elbow, etc. You got to show your elbows????? No fair.
SilentKnight12	Re: Perseverance of the Saints?	#10	[-]
Posts: 766 (08/30/07 22:21:22) exPc Fan Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	"I'm all for good words, good deeds, not creeds." Aren't creeds good words? Just curious. My creeds are the Apostle's and the Nicene. Here's a question I'm lobbing out there for anyone who cares to answer it: how many of your previous churches actully taught the creeds mentioned above?
kindoman	Re: Perseverance of the Saints?	#11	[-]
Posts: 155 (08/31/07 00:29:39) exPc Fan Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I grew up Anglican and there I got taught the above creeds. When I joined the Pents they never denied the creeds but never taught them either. I think that is why the Pent movement is so dangerous. Ask them question to see if they are orthodox and they will pass the tests you throw at them. But when you see them in practice you realize that they are not orthodox. An example is what happened to me two days ago. I was giving testimony to a pent friend of mine about what had happened to me at my church. He said that the church was wrong and that they had lost touch with God, but then in the same sentence told me that I must not fight them or bad mouth them in public (this forum) because I will be cursed for going against Gods anointed. He said "you might end up in a mugging and get stabbed". I see that as a treat. I think it shows how screwed up the pent mentality is. ======================================= Cults resource's and Information: InTouch Resources Apologetic Community - Joined in fighting heresy:InTouch Forum
Seawarress	Re: Perseverance of the Saints?	#12	[-]
Posts: 372 (08/31/07 02:49:55) Mommy of a US soldier Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	*Quote:* He said "you might end up in a mugging and get stabbed". They're STILL spreading fear! Arrrrrrrrgh.
sahara green	Re: Perseverance of the Saints?	#13	[-]
Posts: 437 (08/31/07 06:11:13) exPc Fan Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	"how many of your previous churches actully taught the creeds mentioned above?" Mine didn't. I actually didn't even know the creeds EXISTED until one day when I was in the church office helping the secretary go through some paperwork. I found the statement of beliefs for the church, and the apostle's creed was written out in there! It WAS a part of the beliefs of the church, but they hid it away, never taught it to anyone or brought it up in an effort to not look "legalistic" by saying pre-written words. (They also didn't think it was good to say any pre-written prayers, I think the Lord's prayer was okay, as long as that wasn't ALL you prayed, but any prayers that the church fathers had written out were "dead" or ineffective.) Now, I love the creeds. I'm Lutheran, and we say one or the other each Sunday, depending on the church season. I also try to remember to say the apostles creed every day when I wake up. It's a great way to start the day, in my opinion, affirming the truths that your faith is based on.
DiamondGirllovesHarleys	Re: Perseverance of the Saints?	#14	[-]
Posts: 802 (08/31/07 10:56:32) exPc Fan Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Have you ever noticed how these people make it sound like you can lose your salvation like you can lose a set of car keys. *Quote:* Oh now where did I put my salvation today? I think I left it by the door. No wait let me check my purse,no maybe it's in the car. Oh my gosh I have lost my salvation I better run to the church I sure hope someone is there. Oh my God what if I die on the way I will split hell wide open. Calls 12 people pray for me I have lost my salvation and I am on my way to the church please pray I don't die on the way. That is how they act. *Quote:* Your not afraid of the dark are you? The light hurts my eyes.

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