Was it possible that as you died you could look forward? Is this what faith was about, or was faith an individual's
construct, no faith the same as the next?
His parents had claimed that they were Christians; as Christian as anoyone else who though they were. They had not been imaginative people;when he had misbehaved, their beliefs had encouraged them to beat him, and convinced them that they should send him to a school that beat him.
He grew up thinking that punishment was Christianity's laugh, that pain was Christ's gift to the world, that God enjoyed the
sound of wailing and the sight of blood.
Ok, so what do you think of that? Profound? Not-deep enough? Just a darkness on the page? Or perhaps the words of a
person who really has thought over the issues that we are discussing? Is faith, as he says, just an individual's construct? Is it true that pain is
Christ's gift to the world if those who represent Christ are cruel to the young and vulnerable?
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Opinions on this paragraph of Literature.
| Author | Comment | ||
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 charliedog |
Opinions on this paragraph of Literature. |
Lead | |
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Posts: 377 (06/29/09 04:24:38) |
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 walkawayarchie |
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Posts: 272 (06/29/09 07:23:07) |
I would agree that those who "represent Christ" are cruel to the helpless and unfortunate (young and vulnerable). I do NOT agree with pain being
Christ's gift to the world. Christianity's laugh and Punishment??? I reject that.
Faith is an individual's construct. Not all faiths are alike. That I would agree with. We're all so different- and we don't even think alike- so how could our faiths be alike? This sounds a bit like one of the more pernicious and evil teachings I've heard come from the Pentecostals and others- that "We're all alike under the skin!" No, we are NOT! Whoever wrote this was abused by "Christianity" such as we've experienced among the Pentecostal/Dominionist/Fundamentalist churches ... deeply and wrongly. |
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charliedog |
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Posts: 380 (06/29/09 11:46:58) |
WalkawayArchie, I want to give you and hug and thank you.
So...the things that I have learnt from people like you and the other people who post, I can gently convey to him. Good.
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DiamondGirllovesHarleys |
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Posts: 781 (06/29/09 13:53:42) exPc Fan |
People do a lot of sick things in the "NAME OF GOD" history is full of examples but the truth is those people had something wrong with them. Even
today people do weird and sick things in the name of God. They give God and people who have faith in God a bad name. God never meant for us to beat our
children spare the rod spoil the child didn't mean beat your child. I think it is so sad when mentally ill people don't get the help they need then
they reproduce and abuse their children or they come into a place of power and abuse their followers. Jim Jones is a perfect example of a mentally ill person
with too much power that he in no way needed. Those poor followers of the Waco nut.
I think all people are basically looking for the same thing love and acceptance a place to belong. IF some people who practice Christianity would seriously read their bibles and study it instead of just picking and choosing what they like out of it they would see that God is a God of love not a God of pain. It took me along time to figure out it wasn't God who hurt me and abused me but people. People are weird and some are mean and just down right hateful and some of those people are in the charismatic or pente churchs and when they have alittle bit or a lot of power they abuse it and abuse the people they have power over. This old world is hard enough with out the people you trust harming you too. I always wanted to create a place for people to come and hang out and be themselves and just talk or whatever just be themselves a safe place. With no judgement just a place to come that if you need someone to talk to there are people there to help. If you need a hug you can get one. NO freaky stuff no drugs just a nice clean safe place to hang. I guess that is called Utopia |
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Henny Binn |
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Posts: 82 (06/29/09 14:15:48) |
Yeah....the "hell" thing.....
That's a pretty big deal to a 3 to 5 year old kid. The concept of eternity... Even young ears hearing that over and over again.....then.... trying to FATHOM endlessness in a burning furnace of fire..... Stephen King had NUTHIN on these whacks...........  Henny
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holly |
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Posts: 232 (06/29/09 14:23:04) |
i would be very very careful how you try and explain things to the person. Show is better than tell. I think - what I notice often myself is what someone else
means and what i hear are really different, sometimes any god-words can be too much of a trigger.
My personal opinion - faith is a personal construct, which is different for each person. That doesnt mean its not also be real. And thats as it should be, everyone should find their own path not have one imposed however good the imposed path may be for the person trying to impose it. We all start from different places. |
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charliedog |
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Posts: 382 (06/29/09 14:30:18) |
holly wrote: Thank you Holly - you've really given me some good advice, when you said, "I would be very very careful how you try to
explain things to the person. Show it better than tell, I think - what I notice often myself, is what someone else means and what I hear are really
differerent. Sometimes any God-words can be too much of a trigger"
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tandc90 |
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Posts: 1237 (06/29/09 15:23:01) exPc Fan |
Jim Jones is a perfect example of a mentally ill person with too much power that he in no way needed. A bit off topic, but you guys might be interested to know Jim Jones started out pentecostal. If you've ever heard him preach you'll recognize it as pure pente, and the Peoples' Temple worship was also pure pente in addition to all the manipulations. Blech. |
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walkawayarchie |
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Posts: 276 (06/29/09 15:26:06) |
Yep- and it was the "divine revelations" that led him to Jonestown. I think it's the natural outcome of unlimited Pentecostalism/Dominionism.
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charliedog |
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Posts: 384 (06/29/09 15:28:23) |
I don't know if it is all that off topic....the idea that God enjoyed the pain of human beings....that must of been partly what Jim Jones was all about?
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CaroG87 |
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Posts: 832 (06/29/09 17:00:27) exPc Fan |
Charliedog, our first reading at Mass spoke on this very thing yesterday: God did not make death, nor does he rejoice in the destruction of the living. For
he fashioned all things that they might have being; and the creatures of the world are wholesome, and there is not a destructive drug among them nor any domain
of the netherworld on earth, for justice is undying. (Book of Wisdom, 1:13-15)..... now granted this text isn't in the KJV, and that's a whole
topic in itself.....
In my own viewpoint, God does not delight nor wish for our pain and suffering, but he is there with us when it happens. I don't claim to have any understanding on the nature of suffering..... just that it is, and we plow through it as best we can. |
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RobWood |
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Posts: 167 (06/29/09 18:53:19) |
I would say that Christianity is a human construct, and the people who claim to be Christians may or may not have a single compassionate bone in their bodies.
I would also say that it's not fair to judge Jesus by those who say they believe in him. Anyone can claim to believe something, and even to fill their days
with acting the part. But Jesus was a healer - not a purveyor of pain. If there's healing and compassion present, then I figure I'm in the right place.
If there's anger, violence and condemnation, then I'm outta there.
Rob |
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scribe2007 |
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Posts: 1197 (06/30/09 03:06:15) exPc Fan |
Regarding faith as an individual construct, in p/c we were all meant to believe the same as the leader(s), and express our unity in belief or
whatever...in fact we were meant to go out and ram that particular faith down other people's throats so that they would believe exactly as we did and not
go to Hell!
Cruelty I believe is just one of the dark fruits of pentecostalism. - PepperMintPaty
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charliedog |
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Posts: 385 (06/30/09 05:06:30) |
CaroG87 wrote:I agree with you Caro, but isn't what unites us on this board, the fact that we found a type of "destruction of the living" dressed up as "faith in Christ,"? This is not logical and so the piece of literature above is a reaction to that...but..not a reaction to Pente. Just a reaction to growing up in a home where God was depicted as harsh, cruel, an inflictor of pain. etc. Yes, I agree, we do plow on as best we can! Thanks for sharing your viewpoint. |
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charliedog |
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Posts: 386 (06/30/09 05:12:58) |
scribe2007 wrote: Ah yes Scribe!!!The Great Bogie-Man of Postmodernism. To my eternal shame, I have lectured the sensitive and much more intelligent man who wrote the above piece of literature, about the Postmodernism, in exactly the same terms as you describe. Yes. Thank you for your wise words. The real miracle is that he is tolerant of me. More or less.  But yes, I do think faith is as you say, damaged by the Pente dictatorial stance. In the case of the literarture, the dictatorial stance came from
parents. Always the "giants" to the child. And the green light that they hidden giant, "God" gave them to hurt him in a deliberate
way.
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charliedog |
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Posts: 387 (06/30/09 05:17:38) |
. But Jesus was a healer - not a purveyor of pain. If there's healing and compassion present, then I figure I'm in the right place. If there's anger, violence and condemnation, then I'm outta there. Yes, I agree Rob. The problem lies that when you are a child, there is no "outta there" and the anger,violence and condemnation is dressed up as being Christain - to the extent that the healing and compassion that you mention, can't be presented with a "christain" tag. This is because, (as Holly pointed out) it could be a trigger. However, its a good rule for when a person is older....and one for me to tell to my adult students when I go back into teaching - because many of them discuss these things, and I will remember your succint and clear-cut analysis to pass on to them. Thanks so much |
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brainy |
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Posts: 111 (06/30/09 07:04:17) |
Again we have someone who was taught God prefers pain and suffering to love. Again, another in the long line of distortions about God which Pentecostalism
teaches. When pain is taught/used as the ultimate teaching tool how can love be anything but just another word without much meaning. This is also a Pavlovian
reaction to discipline. When in doubt apply physical violence to solve the problem. What this teaches a child is adults, who are religious, apply a sledge
hammer to swat a fly.
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charliedog |
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Posts: 389 (06/30/09 08:11:42) |
I couldn't agree with you more Brainy and thank you for your post. Interesting, though, isn't it, that actually, the religious background of the author
is not Pente but uptight upper class British Church of England. So my conclusion is that this type of abuse might well go accross the board of all faiths.
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blackdog |
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Posts: 885 (06/30/09 15:01:10) |
Charliedog, it has been my personal experience that with the exception of Pagan faiths...ALL religions have their child-abusers, con artists,
religious-based-gossips, rules-obsessed legalists and people who think they are going to earn a good place in the afterlife by controlling what YOU do.
Pentecostalism just seem to attract more such people.
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charliedog |
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Posts: 392 (07/01/09 00:40:37) |
Very true Blackdog...but why do you say the exception of the Pagan faith?
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I remember being warned that to pick and choose your own faith was the postmodernist trend, and that the postmodernist practice of taking
of a bit here and a bit there to create a religion to suit yourself was "evil". My opinion now is that faith is very individual and elastic. Which
doesn't invalidate it, IMO.
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