I would like to hear other examples of where pente theology just cannot be backed by scripture. Thanks.
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iam4hymn |
Pente doctrine vs. the Bible |
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Can you all give me some specifics to what you all felt were/are direct contradictions to what the Pentecostal church teaches versus what scripture says? My
latest example is listed under a thread titled "Ushering in the Spirit". That is just one example where I find where the pente doctrine or theology
differs from scripture.
I would like to hear other examples of where pente theology just cannot be backed by scripture. Thanks. |
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blackdog |
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Jesus talked about how one should pray by himself, quietly, in his closet, and strike his chest and say "Lord have mercy on me, a sinner."
Pente doctrine says "Jesus Jesus Jesus argle bargle argle bargle shandala shadala yadda yadda unga bunga bunga inga binga binga bunga" (And it seems like the more outlandish and long the tongue-speaking is and the more people present to see it, the better.) Jesus said do not be like the pagans who think they will be heard because of much speaking: Pente doctrine seems to say, shut up and sit down, Jesus. |
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tandc90 |
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Charismatic Chaos by John MacArthur is an excellent study on the subject. Part of my point with this is there are enough discrepancies to literally fill a
book!
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stubborn envelope |
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Pente doctrine says "Jesus Jesus Jesus argle bargle argle bargle shandala shadala yadda yadda unga bunga bunga inga binga binga bunga"LMAO! That's funny. Any use of the word "God" with a capital G in this post refers to the Judeo-Christian god. First of all, there is such a variety of theology even within mainstream Christianity that this topic can be complex, but I can think of a clear example. Tongues and interpretation. In my church, sometimes everyone would get very quiet and someone would start screaming in tongues or otherwise deliver a "message" in an authoritative tone that sounds different than what they usually do, and usually, either that person, or someone else would "interpret". Every time I remember this happening, only two people were involved, but this is what Paul said in 1 Corinthians 14: 26What then shall we say, brothers? When you come together, everyone has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. All of these must be done for the strengthening of the church. 27If anyone speaks in a tongue, two-or at the most three-should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. 28If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and God.Notice that in verse 27, two people are supposed to deliver the message in tongues, or at the most, three. I have never seen this happen. Also, two or three prophets are supposed to speak while the others actually judge what they say, possibly to analyze whether the message is accurate! That definitely never happened in my church or any Pentecostal church I've been in. The interpretation was simply accepted as God's divine word. Also, Pentecostals teach that it is their god speaking through the person who delivers the message in tongues as well as the interpreter, but Paul says in verse 32 that the spirits (plural) of the prophets are subject to them. "Spirits" cannot refer to God, not only because it is used in the plural, but because the verse actually says the spirits are subject to the control of the prophets. I don't know any serious Christians who would say that a person can control God. Paul apparently believed the messages and interpretation were coming from various spirits; perhaps this is why the prophets were to "weigh carefully" (or judge) the message. I don't know if the author of 1 John knew about tongues and interpretation, but he gave this criteria to judge a spirit in 1 John 4: 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; 3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world.James
"The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and all
science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead: his eyes are
closed."
-- Albert Einstein
Last Edited By: stubborn envelope
02/15/09 12:37:49.
Edited 1 times.
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SilentKnight12 |
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Pente doctrine says "Jesus Jesus Jesus argle bargle argle bargle shandala shadala yadda yadda unga bunga bunga inga binga binga bunga"
Scamma ramma ding ding?
There is no theory of evolution, just a list of creatures Chuck Norris allows to live.
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lozza |
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Didn't Jesus say something about going to pray in private without other people seeing?
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stubborn envelope |
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Didn't Jesus say something about going to pray in private without other people seeing?Yes. But whenever you pray, go into your room, close the door, and pray to your Father who is hidden. And your Father who sees from the hidden place will reward you. (Matthew 6:6 NIV)James
"The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and all
science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead: his eyes are
closed."
-- Albert Einstein |
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iam4hymn |
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So are we not supposed to pray aloud in church at all? In Bible study groups or even the pastor? Just curious.
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bootsiebabe |
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Some Pentes add all sorts of laws that they see fit.
Which laws are the most important as said by Jesus himself? how about the two which add no more laws of dress codes, hair codes, etc... Matthew 22: 35- 40
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ADH2000 |
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First off, most of their doctrine comes from the Old Testament and synoptic gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke & John), including the Book of Hebrews, James and
Revelation - which are basically books meant for the "little flock", i.e., the Jewish remnant or believers, and not the Church, the Body of Christ or
the "One New Man" as mentioned in the Apostle Paul's epistles. One must remember that Paul was the Apostle to the Gentiles or the Apostle to the
Uncircumcision (the Gospel of the Kingdom of God), whereas Peter was the Apostle to the Jews, or Circumcision and he preached the Gospel of the Kingdom of
Heaven, as the Jews are promised an earthly kingdom (during the millennium) - and this is where pentecostals also err - they take the promises God made to
Israel (Jewish remnant) and claim it for themselves.
Their basic error comes in not dividing the Word of Truth correctly as stated in 2 Timothy v15. When interpreting the Bible one must basically ask oneself who the scripture or text one is reading is referring to or meant for. It's plain to see that the epistles from Romans to Philemon are meant for Christians living today in this age of Grace as they refer to the Mystery (One New Man). Since the Book of Hosea prophecies Israel's setting aside (Lo-Ammi) which means "not my people", and which is also confirmed in Acts 28, it's plain to garner from this that since Israel doesn't exist, we are living in a signless age - no prophecies, no signs, no wonders. Today's Israel isn't God-given as it is mainly populated and governed by unbelievers and mainly supported by the USA, not God. Christians today are under no obligation to support the current Israel. It is mentioned in the Old Testament prophets that God will plead with Israel in the wilderness (during the Tribulation period) and after they turn to Him once again, He will restore them back to their land - with the original borders as per scripture. God has already restored Israel twice in the past - once after they were captured by Babylon, and the other time by Medo-Persia, Pentecostals mainly teach the "Kingdom of Heaven" gospel that was meant for the Jews (during Jesus first coming), but that gospel has been interrupted and set aside with Israel for the time being, as they crucified Him, so when this Age of Grace comes to a close, the Kingdom of Heaven gospel will again resume and we can see this stated in the Book of Revelation when it states "and the gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven will be preached throughout the world and then the end will come" (paraphrased). God works with people differently in different ages - like what applied to Noah then doesn't apply to us today, and what applied to Jewish believers during the time of the synoptic Gospels, doesn't apply to us today, nor what applies to the Church today, won't be applicable during Jacob's Trouble or the future. We are living in a very special age. We must live by the doctrine especially stated in the Books of Ephesians and Colossians. All scripture was written for us, but not to us and this is where pentecostals make a lot of mistakes as they take everything in the Bible and try and apply it for the Church today, and so there seem to be many contradictions, I guess that's why a lot of people say the Bible contradicts itself. Kingdom of Heaven gospel = Saved by faith plus works. (This is what the Book of James is about). This is the gospel that pentecostals adhere to = wrong gospel for the wrong age. Kingdom of God gospel = Saved by faith plus nothing. The One New Man - Body of Christ and includes both Jew and Gentile, male and female. The middle wall has been broken down, no matter how bad you are - if you believe in Him - that He died for your sins, was resurrected on the 3rd day - you are saved. That's why this Age is so special as our works don't count. Whereas the Jews are God's earthly people, Christians are His heavenly people. Trust this helps to answer your question.
The TRUTH can be dealt with; but a lie cannot.
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ADH2000 |
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Also wanted to state (but there's no edit button) that the Lord's Prayer isn't applicable for Christians today - ya know where it says, "Thy
Kingdom come......." well, we as Christians can't pray for God's Jewish Millennium Kingdom as it has nothing to do with us...... we are to pray
instead for one another and for our current earthly needs.....
The TRUTH can be dealt with; but a lie cannot.
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ADH2000 |
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More.....
They also take most, if not all their doctrine from the Book of Acts, which is a transitional book because it not only moves from signs, wonders, tongues, etc that were given to the Jews and the early church as confirmation that it was from God, but also moves from the Circumcision Gospel to the Uncircumcision Gospel. So if anyone, no matter who they are - Pentecostal or whoever - bases their doctrine on the Book of Acts, they will turn out to be complete nutjobs, obviously because you're basing your doctrine on things that no longer occur or are applicable for today. So one can only imagine that they're either bull****ting, highly imaginative or into fairies and elves, as why don't they also handle deadly snakes, drink poison and survive? Because they know very well what the outcome of that will be - and it's got nothing to do with their faith or the lack thereof. But it has a lot to do with their ignorance and probably love of money, not to mention their ego's. I'm still trying to get it into a certain pentecostal's head that his doctrine is all screwy, yet he claims the signs, healings and miracles he's seen are for real - I guess that's why when Ernest Angley talks into a deaf person's ear (after being healed they automatically say "baby", because they don't know he's saying something else to them and have probably attended his previous "healing crusades" and know that he says "baby" and they must repeat it after him. Doh. The word "baby" is easy to lip read, but when you can't see his lips after being "healed" and don't know what he's saying - are you actually healed? Now that sounds complicated. But then that's exactly what pentecostalism is. Complicated. Not to mention silly.
The TRUTH can be dealt with; but a lie cannot.
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bootsiebabe |
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What happens to those who "claim to be Jews" and are not?
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timpows |
Re: Praying alone | ||
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The way I see it, if we are to take Matthew 6:6 by itself at face value, then no one should be praying in a group. All prayer should be done in private.
However, when I read the verses around Matthew 6:6 it makes sense to me that the author is trying to discourage public prayer as a show of one's piety.
5"And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. 6But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. 7And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. 8Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him. (Bible Gateway.com NIV Matthew 6:5- If the only reason one is praying out aloud is to give the message to others "Hey! Look at me! I'm praying! Look at how Godly I am!", then one should not pray out loud. Of course, this is all my personal interpretation. |
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blackdog |
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No...not really...I mean, it might be your personal interpretation...but it is my personal interpretation also. I suspect there are at least
some other people who feel this way. A friend of mine for example prays quite often, even at work sometimes. He does so silently however, the only reason that
I'm aware of this is because I know he does the same thing even in his own house, and I figured out what he was doing, I did not ask. Jesus was pretty
clear on this issue, and I've always wondered how and why so many people can call themselves Christians and not take what Jesus said seriously when I'm
not specifically a Christian but rather an agnostic Theist and I try to take what Jesus said into consideration at least. I don't always do it, but I try.
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stubborn envelope |
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So are we not supposed to pray aloud in church at all? In Bible study groups or even the pastor? Just curious.You can find scriptures to support both positions, which is often the case.
"The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and all
science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead: his eyes are
closed."
-- Albert Einstein |
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blackdog |
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stubborn envelope wrote:It's one thing when a group prays together and doesn't make a big deal out of it...like saying grace at the dinner table or in church at the end of the service. It's quite another the way it gets a lot of the time where you have one person just going on and on...and another altogether where glossolalia is involved. |
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walkawayarchie |
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I'd add to that list people who are supposedly praying privately, but in reality they're preaching- and that rather loud.
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tandc90 |
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Great explanation, ADH2000.
It never fails to amaze me how sensible right division is, how it answers the questions I have. I wish I could find a local
church like this. I'd probably actually go. |
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iam4hymn |
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I'd add to that list people who are supposedly praying privately, but in reality they're preaching- and that rather loud.Grrrrr, I cannot stand that! |
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stubborn envelope |
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Grrrrr, I cannot stand that!Hymn, are you an ex-Pentecostal?
"The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and all
science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead: his eyes are
closed."
-- Albert Einstein |
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